An update on DRM support

The SD Android app took a long time and a lot of money to finally support DRM…and the latest version broke the DRM keys in order to expand it to a software DVR.

The big difference between SD and Channels is that SD has been producing hardware tuners for many years and has created a name by doing so…and thus an international following of sorts. Channels is an infant company doing something that would appeal to many (I think) if it were easy to setup, easy to maintain, cheap, and didn’t have issues with restrictions like DRM support.

So, the issue isn’t with Apple. It’s with DTLA, funding, and powerful cable companies creating barriers to protect their bottom line.

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so is there a new timetable for Channels DVR w/o DRM?

Spectrum (aka TWC) has a monopoly in Hawaii and just about all of there HD channels are DRM. This was a shocker because there was no mention of this limitation on their CableCard & SDV adapter website pages, plus the representative told me I would receive all my paid channels with the exchange of the set top boxes for the card with the exception of HBO, Cinemax, Showtime type of premium channels. Then I got home and set up my SDHDHR-Prime and all only to find out the hard way.
The only work around I’ve discovered currently is I had to download all my DRM HD channels individually from the Apple TV App Store. So Channels is used for watching all the local chennels and we have to switch to each individual app (those required a cable subscription ironically) to watch HD shows. Puts a stall on my future DVR hopes also.

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If you really want to offer the DRM support the solution would be to take out insurance for any potential action by the DTLA. An $8m liability insurance would be expensive but is a lot more affordable (In the $10s of thousands pa?) and could be laid off against a higher subscription for those that want it. Talk to your broker for details.

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Would really hope you can find a solution here. Not having DRM is a deal breaker for me and not sure how far this can go as a solution without it. DVR seems like a HUGE step forward but not having DRM will poison a lot of customers who get down the road and can’t benefit from all the good work you guys have done.

At the same time, I can’t see paying more for this. $8 a month plus supplying my own hardware is already a big ask. My DVR is basically free from the cable company now and I am already paying extra for the cableCard so that I can play with this stuff. Willing to pay for DVR and hardware but at a certain point it starts to feel silly. Realize this puts you guys in a tough spot but if this application area starts to grow will certainly be more than 300 users wanting this.

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First I want to thank you and your team for the deep dive in trying to figure this out. I have some suggestions.

Its seems that Channels and Silicon Dust are somewhat partners and competitors, but have a vested interest in a relationship that is mutually beneficial. Users of the HD Homerun app as well as their DVR solution also, I am sure, want DRM support and having DRM support is good for both companies. I would recommend considering a software architecture that would allow the DRM component to be a stand alone process / library that both companies could own and pay for the license to spread the cost to a much wider user base. Then Silicon Dust and Channels could integrate the component into their apps as well as potentially other 3rd parties who have the same issue to resolve. OR, it could be an add on component that we as end users purchase through an in app purchase directly from the partner company / lincencee from DTLA if sub-licensing is not allowed. This could be a nice solution for many other apps that need such a capability like VLC or any other app that could see Silicon Dust Tuners … I imagine there are others. If the licensing permits it and the software architecture can support it as well then there could be an annual recurring fee that reduces over time as the user base grows. You could start with a kickstarter campaign to sign up a minimum number of users to get cash up front to get things moving.

tmm1: Has anything changed since November?

1. HDCP on tvOS: No API, but workaround still possible.
2. Number of users interested in DRM support: 300
3. DTCP-IP License Costs: $20k/yr + up to $8mil liability
4. Projected break-even price: $15/mo

You’re basically saying you need $54k a year to break even. Given that 20k per year would be $5.56/mo for 300 users, or 37% of the $15/mo price, that leaves 63%, or $34,000/yr as unspecified additional costs. I’m presuming that’s liability insurance and your amortized R&D costs. A quick Google search, not sure how applicable, shows a $2 million general liability policy as costing as low as $500 per year, so even if it costs up to 30 times that, it would still leave R&D as your greatest expense, which is an upfront cost.

a) What governs the range of liability, between 1 million or 8 million? Is it the extent of the possible compromise? Or is the max liability yet to be determined?

b) Given R&D mostly being a fixed upfront cost, at some point, even with just 300 users, our $15/mo would have paid you back, so the monthly price should then drop to between $6 and $10, depending on the liability insurance cost, right?

c) If 600 people signed up for DRM rather than 300, then the initial monthly price should run around $7.50 a month, with a future drop to between $3 and $5? Likewise, if a thousand people signed up, initial price would be $4.50/mo, dropping to $2 or $3 a month?

d) Would you consider a launching Kickstarter for the R&D costs? See if you can cover the dev costs up front.

It seems your biggest issue is getting enough people interested. Also, obviously, having DRM support isn’t just for initial 300 people. It makes your app hugely more marketable, safe for a much larger audience, and removes the largest caveat hindering your users from evangelizing your product and service.

I’m increasingly passionate about DRM, because Cox Cable keeps adding DRM to additional channels on a monthly basis, and while I love Channels and subscribe to the DVR service, I’m not sure how much longer I can continue to use it. I also bought my mother an AppleTV and HDHomeRun Prime only to realize her cable provider (formerly Time Warner Cable) DRM’s everything. I can’t recommend Channels to anyone these days. Solving the DRM problem seems like the cost of doing business. You can’t play ball without a bat.

As an aside, it’d be awesome if you became more of a one-stop-shop. For instance, becoming an in-app reseller of blessed or preferred Silicon Dust and NAS hardware. And built more self-service/self-install onboarding/trouble shooting into the app for new users, even telling users onscreen how to connect things, who to call at their cable company, and what info to give them. Lower the barriers to entry.

The majority of hdhomerun users do not have or want cable. Along with the Channels app, this is a full-service solution for cable-cutters. The barrier to entry for users still paying for a cable subscription is that you don’t get a whole lot of new functionality with a prime. You can do essentially everything the cable company can do for you already with different hardware and a different interface. So you are buying extra hardware and subscribing to additional services only to save on some of the cable fees (but still paying a large chunk of money to the cable company for service).

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Well, I’ll tell you, in my house, we have a $127/mo cable bill, not counting internet. And $51 per month of it is for our 2 DVRs and 1 receiver. I would be happy to give up cable all together, but my significant other loves her cable channels. So, even if channels DRM was $180/yr, I’d probably pay it to ditch the $610 a year I’m paying in cable box rentals.

Incidentally, what percentage of Channel customers are OTA vs Cable? Are you guessing, or was that announced?

I am guessing, but the original hdhomerun models were only OTA. Now, there are multiple different models, but only one is for people who already pay for cable (the prime). It just seems to me that if these users were the mainstream, then there would be more products to appease these customers.

It might be hasty to presume. 89% of homes with televisions in the US still rent cable boxes, while just 11% are solely OTA. Among the greatest complaints to the FCC are excessive cable box rental fees, which have gone up 185% since 1994. It seems like there should be an enormous market of people unwilling to cut cable, but wanting to pay hundreds less for the same service. It would be interesting to hear from tmm1 the true proportion in the user base.

I have a Prime for my cable subscription, and then a Connect to add two tuners for local OTA channels that lets me record/watch 5 things at once. For channels that are DRM I just use the Xbox One with HDHomeRuns app or use the apps (like HBO Go). Only problem I have is Starz cuz Comcast sucks.

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I see. You are proposing a new business plan to attract new customers. A subset of people who want to keep their cable subscription, but get rid of the cable boxes and pay higher fees to Channels DVR… with the hopeful end result of getting a similar service as that offered with the cable company equipment except with reduced fees.

There might be a market for this. Similar to the market of people who own their own internet modems. Although owning your own modem doesn’t require purchasing hardware/networking components, installing software, configuring a server, and subscribing to a new monthly service.

Regardless, 20k/year + liability insurance for $8 million is still a business risk and might not be profitable until there are hundreds of users willing to pay the substantially increased subscription costs.

+1 on Kickstarter campaign for this. Why not? Nothing to lose.

These seem like very small potatoes discussions. There is a much larger market for this functionality than a few hundred users. I’m sure they could get into the 10’s of thousands at least - but we’ll never know if this huge pain point exists that so many channels that people take for granted cannot be played on the system.

Also don’t see this as that much of a change in business model. I am interested in this specifically for this functionality. I have no OTA in my area and must use cable box. I think there are a lot of people in the same boat.

To me the idea is that the AppleTV becomes a single box for all TV. I am willing to pay for that. I want to stop needing to change inputs if possible. That would be worth something to me.

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+1 on kickstarter… really would love this feature, don’t mind paying for it…

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So, we’re either in a holding pattern regarding DRM, or there’s non-public stuff going on behind the scenes, I guess. I hope the latter.

ugh…every time i see this thread pops up, i become so excited hoping for good news…the thread’s title always gets me :wink:

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+1 on the Kickstarter. If you price the liability insurance and find you need $30K for DTCP-IP licensing and liability insurance for one year, hopefully you can get enough funds to make it happen. That’s long enough to see if it is a viable product beyond those 300 people who have expressed interest (I am also interested, but haven’t signed that list, so there may be others like me)

Once the solution exists, if SiliconDust was to link to it on their site, some web sites writing articles about a way to reduce what you pay the cable company etc., you may have more than enough customers to make it viable. Maybe wouldn’t even have to do a monthly fee, just an in-app upgrade to add DRM support.

One other angle to consider are SiliconDust’s commercial customers. They are buying much more expensive hardware, but that hardware allows unlimited multicast streaming (i.e a single tuner could be streamed to 100 TVs if they were all watching the same thing) That is a lot of potential sales down the road if Channels had a polished commercial grade solution.

I would Kickstart this in a heartbeat. I got an HDHomeRun, paid for the Channels iPhone and Apple TV app only to be let down that I can’t watch DRM channels. YEs, I understand this was my fault for not researching in depth before purchasing.

That said, I did sign up for Channels DVR, but subsequently cancelled because no DRM. I would pay a reasonable amount to make this happen. Please add this feature!