TiVo Stream vs Apple TV for Channels DVR

Channels Android TV
#42

Got the TS4K and playing with it. I did the soft disable of Tivo stuff and its working pretty well. Its a little quicker than the native Sony Android TV, but not blazing faster. I was getting some sluggish response on the Sony, but not so much here. The Live key is working sometimes, and sometimes ends up on a Tivo stream for a second before Channels overrides it. I'm sure if I uninstall that stuff it will help that.

One thing... Is there not a key mapped to last channel on the TS4K? I had that working on the Sony remote automatically.

#43

The live button will jump back to last channel (once you disable the tivo stuff so it stops interfering).

#44

Ok, yes I have the Live key working. What I was looking for was on the Sony Android TV remote there is a "last" button and I can hit it over and over and it jumps back and forth between the last 2 channels I've watched. There is enough lag with the TS4K and that button, vs. the "last" button on Sony that I didn't realize it was doing the same thing. I then hit the button several times and it appears to be queing up the times I pressed it and then it just stalls and gets stuck. The TS4K is faster than the Sony so not sure why this button is behaving more slowly. Now that I know what its doing I'll just wait... but other family members may be more impatient.

#45

Because the button isn't handled like a regular remote button, IIRC. In order for Channels to handle the Live button, it must listen for some system event separate from regular keycodes. (This is just another example of TiVo taking something that doesn't have to be crazy or hard, and making it a PITA.)

#46

After I let things settle down, it is actually responding more quickly now. I just have to make sure no one in the house just gets impatient and keeps hitting it.

#47

I got the TS4K this afternoon and did the soft disabling of all the Tivo stuff and loaded Channels DVR with the accessibility settings. Overall its been pretty straightforward.... more so than I expected. The only real issue was that pairing the keyboard took about 5 attempts before it stopped going back into pairing mode. Honestly, if Tivo had shipped this functionality, and somehow had the equivalent of the Channels DVR app talking to their Tivo DVRs, I think the Tivo world would be quite happy. But they didn't.

I have the TS4K on an old non 4K TV in my office right now so next step will be to put it on the Sony 4K and do some more direct comparisons and more testing to see if I get any of the HDR or other problems.

Overall, I've not reached any conclusions. Its not quite as zippy as I was hoping, but very smooth and everything with the remote seems to just work. Would actually uninstalling all the Tivo stuff vs. just disabling it gain any performance advantage (is any of the crap still running in the background)?

I expect it will come down to my deciding if I want the faster client and apple ecosystem with a really crappy remote experience or what feels more like a Channels centric experience with a really good remote, albeit not as fast, but at 1/4 the price. I'm going to do some direct time comparisons.

#48

Did a lot more testing tonight and ran into a couple of issues. First, colors were a little muted on TS4K compared to ATV4K. I changed a setting from Dolby Vision to HDR10 and that seemed to have fixed it. The bigger issue is that the volume and mute buttons don’t work on my Sony X900F TVs. Works fine on the old non 4K LG. This seems to be one of several common issues TiVo hasn’t fixed. This is a show stopper if I can’t get around it. The really cool integration of Channels benefit is lost if we need a 2nd remote to control volume.

#49

Those remotes are Smart programmed by the OS for the TV or sound device IR codes.
This is when u wish to use the TV volume control via IR and not via hdmi CEC or just use the system volume.
U need to go into OS settings and program your remotes IR for the type, brand, and model tv or av receiver you wish to control.
I did so for the old Vizio tv the Tivo is hooked up to, same process for my living room newer Vizio tv and sound bar, (but in that case, i selected soundbar as audio device)

Unless your TV or audio output device is a super new model, any Android TV box should be able to program its remote to work with it.

#50

Well this sticky thread explains that Tivo has blocked your ability to program it to a specific TV - https://www.tivocommunity.com/community/index.php?threads/heres-how-to-disable-tivos-automatic-remote-programming.577390/page-3#post-12100294 They are apparently auto programming it. I found in the Tivo subreddit Tivo people back in May saying they would get it fixed. I've tried all the simple instruction floating around that explain how to manually program it to no avail. The TV is a several year old Sony X900F, which is pretty widely sold TV and ironically runs Android TV. The Siri Remote has no trouble controlling the TV's volume, so I know that works via CEC. I'm going to give the procedure in that thread a try when the time to do it.

#51

Following that thread to disable the auto programming, I was able to enter a code to control volume and got it to work, but its still having some issues between the remote and the TV. I think CEC and the IR codes are fighting with each other so I need to get the bit about disabling CEC sorted. After I put in the Sony code, the volume and mute buttons worked great. Then after a while longer the TV started flipping back and forth between internal speakers and the Sonos Beam. Ironically, when it flips to internal, the TS4K loses the ability to control volume, which is bizarre since the code I put in was Sony, not Sonos. The TV hasn't had this issue flipping back and forth since I retired my Caavo. It would do it sometimes then, but since we've been just using the ATV with a cheap IR remote the TV has stayed on external. So it has to be a CEC-storm.

What I like about the TS4K is the Channels-centric user experience with the remote. But having to go to developer mode and the command line to program volume on a remote is ridiculous, and the fact that they haven't fixed it since May is more ridiculous. If there was a similar remote experience on the Nvidia Shield (or ATV4K... chuckling) that was as easy to setup with Channels as this is, I'd probably be fine spending the extra money to do it. By that, I mean the Guide, Live, Last Channel, Channel Up/Down, Numbers, etc. That just makes the whole experience much better.

This particular issue is completely dependent on what TV you have, because the old LG I have worked fine with it out of the box. Clearly they didn't have the budget to do enough testing, nor fixing bugs that are being found.

#52

The Shield 2019 remote is far better than the 2017 models had.
It lacks number buttons, and channel up down, etc, but most streamboxes and apps do not really use them, so it makes sense that they are not present.

I really liked the feel of the Roku remote, I had one for a short time, but found the ecosystem too limiting and Emby, had deal breaker, un-fixable serious bugs, (as well as no Channels DVR support) so it was returned.

Anyway, like i mentioned, a Shield Pro, since it has usb ports,is awesome for use of a usb remote of your choosing, however, yes, it cost a good amount, if u can even find one in stock...ever since the pandemic hit, they, and may other electronics, are very hard to find in stock.
BUt if you want the best Android TV experience, the Shield TV is the top rated box by all the major, and minor, tech reviewers out there. Maybe until Google releases thier own dongle or box....

#53

I'm well aware of all the different remote control options and UI issues presented, but ergonomics and overall UX are most important to me. In the end, what I missed most about TiVo when I switched over to Channels DVR, was the TiVo "peanut" remote. It feels the best in my hand, is easy to use in the dark, and isn't as sensitive as the Siri touchpad remote. I missed using it when I finally retired my TiVo gear.

So I used the built-in "remote control learning" feature of the AppleTV, and now use my beloved TiVo remote to control it, and it works perfectly. It even adds buttons for commands that aren't as easy or even available on the Siri remote (such as skip back, skip forward, next chapter and previous chapter.)

Yes, I keep the Siri remote nearby, for when I have a voice request, or need the precision of the touchpad to scrub to a specific spot on a video's timeline, or need to use that "TV" button. But my primary remote these days for TV and DVR watching is the TiVo remote.

That said, I mention this nuance as it slightly bridges the gap between the overall experiences granted by TiVo Stream and AppleTV for Channels DVR. If you really, really like the TiVo remote (as I do) then you can still use it on the AppleTV, for the most part. This felt like great news to me and I'm really enjoying it. My only regret is not switching over sooner.

#54

I did the same thing with the Roku remote to control the ATV4K. I just taught the commands to it and it worked well. The issue though, in comparison with this Android TV experience, which I'm able to get on the TS4K remote and the Sony TV remote, is the availability of more commands.

Channel up and down, which also let you page up and down in the Guide. Live TV and Guide buttons that take you there no matter what app you are in. And last channel being able to flip between two programs. Numbers I never used a lot in cable days, but they are there too. There is no ability to do any of this with ATV4K.

One big flaw with the ATV4K is that you can't address an app from the remote. All the other platforms let you do that. The best you can do is a macro that brings you home and then navigates with arrows to open an app. With Android you can call and App from a button, and with Channels even go to part of the app. Once you have that, its kind of a game changer for usability. With the TV4K, I can hit Netflix and go back to what I was watching there, and then hit Live TV, and jump back to the show I was watching... or hit Tivo and it does a pretty good job of bringing you back to a recording you were watching.

If the Sony Android TV had a little more horsepower, I would just stick with that, but its at the edge. I would consider paying the extra bucks for an Nvidia Shield if there were a remote that easily did all the functions of the TS4K... and not wanting to buy a $200 Harmony for every TV.

One question on the ATV remote. I read in here that double tapping play/pause would do last channel. I have never gotten that to work on the ATV. Is that supposed to work?

#55

For me the benefits and interoperability of tvOS outweigh the lack of those cool conveniences (like app addressability and button customization) on AndroidTV. One day I might try that on the kitchen TV, but for now I'm happy with this combination of hardware and software for the way I watch TV most.

One question on the ATV remote. I read in here that double tapping play/pause would do last channel. I have never gotten that to work on the ATV. Is that supposed to work?

Yes, it works for me. So long as there is a "last channel" to switch to (meaning, during this viewing session,) I am able to double tap the play/pause button on my remote, and it toggles to the previous channel I was watching. Double tapping it again, toggles back. This works on my Siri remote as well as my TiVo remote.

#56

Can you share how you stripped all the TiVo stuff off the TS4k?

#57

Here's a detailed write-up: https://www.techhive.com/article/3567053/the-best-cheap-android-tv-streamer-for-cord-cutters.html

#58

@Fofer, Does that double click work wherever you are in Channels? If you are watching a recording and doublclick play/pause, does it bring you back to your last live channel? That would be good... still not as good as doing it while I'm in Netflix and have it bring me back to Channels live. I agree that the numbers are marginally useful... but Guide and Last Channel are really useful.

#59

The Techhive article I think is sourcing info from these, although Techive gives you a softer way to just disable. In either case, all of it is selectively reversable:

Most things...

Removing autoprogramming of the remote:

#60

By disabling the CEC stuff, I got the remote to behave with volume better and was able to power on and off, and control volume reliably without it fighting with the Sonos. It lost it once on a reboot, but it was after I had uninstalled all the Tivo stuff to do the more agressive removal. It took the code again easily. Now the only glitch with TV control is the TV is IR and TS4K is bluetooth, so have to make sure to have the remote pointed at the TV or it may turn off the TV and leave the TS4K active or visa versa. In either case, just hitting select wakes the TS4K if its not there on power up.

Just as I'm getting comfortable that though convoluted to get it all working, and doubting long term support from Tivo, its feeling pretty good and performing OK. Now I'm just watching TV and I'm now getting the video flickering that has been a common problem. I hadn't seen that at all in hours of testing it. This is very frustrating to say the least and I believe Tivo has been saying they will fix this stuff for several months.

Did Tivo test this thing at all?

I'll have to play with it more and see if the flickering is frequently occuring. After having all this cool remote integration it will be hard to go back to ATV4K without it. Also enjoying Reelgood on Android which is a good aggregator for the streaming services. I probably need to pick up a Shield and see if I can get a remote experience there like I'm seenig here.

#61

No, the double-click only works when I am watching live TV, wanting to toggle back and forth between two live channels.

I agree those extra buttons/functionality would be nice, but the lack of them doesn't pose as a dealbreaker, for me at least. The appeal of the number buttons, I'm thinking, is greater once you add ButtonMapper to the mix. You could assign each favorite app its own number! Or other desired commands.

All that being said, I don't jump around in the overall interface all that much, but I do choose content and jump around within it. And lately I've come to appreciate zen simplicity in my chosen interfaces. So this cocktail of hardware and software (not to mention interoperability with my phone, tablet and computer) means AppleTV wins this round. As an overall streaming device it's far more mature than the TiVo Stream, and the other apps available on it look and feel nicer. If all I wanted was a Channels DVR client though, and the cheapest way to get there, the TiVo Stream feels like a good choice. I've just lost faith in TiVo's ability to maintain and improve their products. As a longtime user I had enough, the past 5 years have been rough. So I'm feeling the breath of fresh air, and the change feels good.

My only regret is not switching to Channels sooner. It's a gamechanger for me and I'm loving it.

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